Discussion:
Infocom Adventure
(too old to reply)
Tavis Ormandy
2021-01-11 19:50:44 UTC
Permalink
The infocom games were before my time, but I have an open
mind about this stuff, so I tried playing the HHGTTG game
this weekend.

There were some lines that felt like DNA had written them
(maybe he did, I know he was involved). That was cool.

The main problem for me was that what soft-locking
(getting the game into a state where you cannot make
progress) seems to be part of the game, which is super
frustrating.

Don't get me wrong, I've played old Sierra games, but I
think they would still have considered soft-locking
progress a bug?

Here's an example, early on, Ford offers you a towel - if
you accept it, the game continues but you can't actually
Moments later, your friend Ford Prefect arrives. He
hardly seems to notice your predicament, but
keeps glancing nervously at the sky. He says, "Hello,
Arthur," takes a towel from his battered
leather satchel, and offers it to you.
take towel
....Silly me, I guess???

There are still some fun lines, e.g.
look around
You keep out of this, you're dead and should be
concentrating on developing a good firm rigor
mortis.
Here's another example in the Vogon hold, there's a puzzle
where you have to build a rube goldberg machine to get a
babel fish. The flavor text wasn't from the book but does
sound like it was written by DNA, the kind of content I
was hoping for!

The problem is, if you didn't get all the items you needed
to build it, too bad you're dead. The game never tells you
you can't progress though, so you have to have played it
enough to get frustrated and lookup the solution.
Honestly, it spoiled what could have been a fun puzzle.
press dispenser button
A single babel fish shoots out of the slot. It sails
across the room and hits the dressing gown.
The fish slides down the sleeve of the gown and falls to
the floor, landing on the towel. A split
second later, a tiny cleaning robot whizzes across the
floor, grabs the fish, and continues its
breakneck pace toward a tiny robot panel at the base of
the wall. The robot zips through the
panel, and is gone.
I don't know if I have the patience to finish the game,
which is a shame because I there is some content I would
have really enjoyed!
--
_o)
/\\ _o) _o)
_\_V _( ) _( ) :wq!
Nemo Thorx
2021-01-12 02:07:27 UTC
Permalink
Quoting Tavis Ormandy from 11 Jan (a Monday in 2021) at 1150 hours...
Post by Tavis Ormandy
There were some lines that felt like DNA had written them
(maybe he did, I know he was involved). That was cool.
As far as I know, he was heavily involved in both writing and
puzzle-creation, but didn't do the "turn it into code" programming
(He had an interest in doing so, but the expertise needed was more than
the available time for him to learn)
Post by Tavis Ormandy
The main problem for me was that what soft-locking
(getting the game into a state where you cannot make
progress) seems to be part of the game, which is super
frustrating.
Don't get me wrong, I've played old Sierra games, but I
think they would still have considered soft-locking
progress a bug?
It's very deliberate. Douglas himself said that the game is
user-insulting and user-mendacious (ie, deliberately lies to you)

https://twitter.com/bbcarchive/status/1011936679211528192

...basically, what you're describing is a feature, not a bug
Post by Tavis Ormandy
Here's an example, early on, Ford offers you a towel - if
you accept it, the game continues but you can't actually
Moments later, your friend Ford Prefect arrives. He
hardly seems to notice your predicament, but
keeps glancing nervously at the sky. He says, "Hello,
Arthur," takes a towel from his battered
leather satchel, and offers it to you.
take towel
....Silly me, I guess???
I'm not getting the concern here. It's a puzzle - and a simple one. I'm
sure everyone went down the path of taking the towel once - either
because they knew from the radio/books that towels are good, or they
knew from text adventure gaming tropes that you collect everything if
you can. This puzzle subverted both those expectations nicely :)

Anyway, a game without dead-end paths would be pretty dull. We have save
points for a reason :)
Post by Tavis Ormandy
There are still some fun lines, e.g.
look around
You keep out of this, you're dead and should be
concentrating on developing a good firm rigor
mortis.
Here's another example in the Vogon hold, there's a puzzle
where you have to build a rube goldberg machine to get a
babel fish. The flavor text wasn't from the book but does
sound like it was written by DNA, the kind of content I
was hoping for!
The problem is, if you didn't get all the items you needed
to build it, too bad you're dead. The game never tells you
you can't progress though, so you have to have played it
enough to get frustrated and lookup the solution.
Honestly, it spoiled what could have been a fun puzzle.
The babelfish puzzle is famous, to the point that infocom sold "I got
the Babel Fish" tshirts.

For what it's worth, I solved the babelfish puzzle by repeatedly playing
through to it, finding I couldn't solve it because I lacked an item, and
then revisiting the game from scratch. It was definitely frustrating,
but the sense of accomplishment when done was fantastic and in total, it
was fun! (I didn't actually find it conceptually hard - just time
consumingly iterative)
Post by Tavis Ormandy
I don't know if I have the patience to finish the game,
which is a shame because I there is some content I would
have really enjoyed!
Whilst the Babel Fish puzzle does have the reputation for being
fiendish, the whole game changes style not long after that (once you get
onto the Heart of Gold). I actually found the latter half of the game to
be harder, but from memory, nothing in it relies on the first half, so
you can lock in a "arrived on the Heart of Gold" savepoint :)

There is a lot of quirky obscure content in the game too (footnote 12!)
and IMHO, absolutely worth it overall


As a final observation, I'd note that at the time of release, it was
considered one of Infocom's best games, and was a best seller. It gained
much critical acclaim. So I'd say give it another go, and treat the game
itself as a character - a perhaps not entirely reliably one :)


.../Nemo
--
----------------------------------------- -----------------------------
earth native
Professor Urban Chronotis
2021-01-12 04:09:31 UTC
Permalink
Nemo Thorx
Post by Nemo Thorx
Quoting Tavis Ormandy from 11 Jan (a Monday in 2021) at 1150 hours...
Post by Tavis Ormandy
There were some lines that felt like DNA had written them
(maybe he did, I know he was involved). That was cool.
As far as I know, he was heavily involved in both writing and
puzzle-creation, but didn't do the "turn it into code" programming
(He had an interest in doing so, but the expertise needed was more than
the available time for him to learn)
Post by Tavis Ormandy
The main problem for me was that what soft-locking
(getting the game into a state where you cannot make
progress) seems to be part of the game, which is super
frustrating.
Don't get me wrong, I've played old Sierra games, but I
think they would still have considered soft-locking
progress a bug?
It's very deliberate. Douglas himself said that the game is
user-insulting and user-mendacious (ie, deliberately lies to you)
https://twitter.com/bbcarchive/status/1011936679211528192
...basically, what you're describing is a feature, not a bug
Post by Tavis Ormandy
Here's an example, early on, Ford offers you a towel - if
you accept it, the game continues but you can't actually
Moments later, your friend Ford Prefect arrives. He
hardly seems to notice your predicament, but
keeps glancing nervously at the sky. He says, "Hello,
Arthur," takes a towel from his battered
leather satchel, and offers it to you.
take towel
....Silly me, I guess???
I'm not getting the concern here. It's a puzzle - and a simple one. I'm
sure everyone went down the path of taking the towel once - either
because they knew from the radio/books that towels are good, or they
knew from text adventure gaming tropes that you collect everything if
you can. This puzzle subverted both those expectations nicely :)
Anyway, a game without dead-end paths would be pretty dull. We have save
points for a reason :)
Post by Tavis Ormandy
There are still some fun lines, e.g.
look around
You keep out of this, you're dead and should be
concentrating on developing a good firm rigor
mortis.
Here's another example in the Vogon hold, there's a puzzle
where you have to build a rube goldberg machine to get a
babel fish. The flavor text wasn't from the book but does
sound like it was written by DNA, the kind of content I
was hoping for!
The problem is, if you didn't get all the items you needed
to build it, too bad you're dead. The game never tells you
you can't progress though, so you have to have played it
enough to get frustrated and lookup the solution.
Honestly, it spoiled what could have been a fun puzzle.
The babelfish puzzle is famous, to the point that infocom sold "I got
the Babel Fish" tshirts.
For what it's worth, I solved the babelfish puzzle by repeatedly playing
through to it, finding I couldn't solve it because I lacked an item, and
then revisiting the game from scratch. It was definitely frustrating,
but the sense of accomplishment when done was fantastic and in total, it
was fun! (I didn't actually find it conceptually hard - just time
consumingly iterative)
Post by Tavis Ormandy
I don't know if I have the patience to finish the game,
which is a shame because I there is some content I would
have really enjoyed!
Whilst the Babel Fish puzzle does have the reputation for being
fiendish, the whole game changes style not long after that (once you get
onto the Heart of Gold). I actually found the latter half of the game to
be harder, but from memory, nothing in it relies on the first half, so
you can lock in a "arrived on the Heart of Gold" savepoint :)
There is a lot of quirky obscure content in the game too (footnote 12!)
and IMHO, absolutely worth it overall
As a final observation, I'd note that at the time of release, it was
considered one of Infocom's best games, and was a best seller. It gained
much critical acclaim. So I'd say give it another go, and treat the game
itself as a character - a perhaps not entirely reliably one :)
.../Nemo
Anyone happen to know if the BBC website version is true to the original
Infocom version? I’ve only dabbled with the website one, seemed familiar.

Oh wait, I could google that, I’ll be over here...
Nemo Thorx
2021-01-12 05:27:13 UTC
Permalink
Quoting Professor Urban Chronotis from 11 Jan (a Monday in 2021) at 2209 hours...
Post by Professor Urban Chronotis
Anyone happen to know if the BBC website version is true to the original
Infocom version? I’ve only dabbled with the website one, seemed familiar.
Oh wait, I could google that, I’ll be over here...
hehe.

for the record, it is as far as I've ever heard. I think they just added
some hooks to handle the "show different graphics at the right time"
(which might have been as simple as text-parsing the output to know what
part the game is up to, or could have been a deeper custom
implementation of a Z-machine

The game used to also be on Douglas' own site, but it seems to need
java... https://douglasadams.com/creations/infocomjava.html


.../Nemo
--
----------------------------------------- -----------------------------
earth native
Tavis Ormandy
2021-01-12 05:46:52 UTC
Permalink
In article <1553211725.632115721.846332.mazerlodge-
Post by Professor Urban Chronotis
Anyone happen to know if the BBC website version is true to the original
Infocom version? I?ve only dabbled with the website one, seemed familiar.
Oh wait, I could google that, I?ll be over here...
I was playing the DOS version in an emulator. It seems
mostly the same to me, only difference I've noticed is the
version I was playing gives you a menu if you type HINT -
the BBC one just says look in the box!

Too bad the map seems to be broken on the BBC website,
that could have been handy!

Tavis.
--
_o)
/\\ _o) _o)
_\_V _( ) _( ) :wq!
Nemo Thorx
2021-01-12 06:46:40 UTC
Permalink
Quoting Tavis Ormandy from 11 Jan (a Monday in 2021) at 2146 hours...
Post by Tavis Ormandy
In article <1553211725.632115721.846332.mazerlodge-
Post by Professor Urban Chronotis
Anyone happen to know if the BBC website version is true to the original
Infocom version? I?ve only dabbled with the website one, seemed familiar.
Oh wait, I could google that, I?ll be over here...
I was playing the DOS version in an emulator. It seems
mostly the same to me, only difference I've noticed is the
version I was playing gives you a menu if you type HINT -
the BBC one just says look in the box!
The hint system depends on the version you have! For instance, I have
this game datafile...
Post by Tavis Ormandy
Release 58 / Serial number 851002
In which...
Post by Tavis Ormandy
Post by Professor Urban Chronotis
hint
If you're really stuck, a complete map and InvisiClues Hint Booklet are
available from your dealer, or via mail order with the form that came in your
package.
And I've also got...
Post by Tavis Ormandy
Release 59 / Serial number 851108
Release 60 / Serial number 861002
...both of which have the same InvisiClues Hint Booklet thing

And for all three of these the data file is 111k in size... and I'm
curious as to what subtle differences are between them (presumably
bugfixes)
Post by Tavis Ormandy
Release 31 / Serial number 871119 / Interpreter 1 Version F
...which I'm guessing is what you have (or close to it) which has
Post by Tavis Ormandy
Post by Professor Urban Chronotis
hint
[Warning: It is recognized that the temptation for help may at times be so
exceedingly strong that you might fetch hints prematurely. Therefore, you may
at any time during the story type HINTS OFF, and this will disallow the seeking
out of help for the present session of the story. If you still want a hint now,
indicate HINT.]
Seems douglasadams.com and BBC both use the Release 59 / 851108 version
for some reason. Huh.
Post by Tavis Ormandy
Too bad the map seems to be broken on the BBC website,
that could have been handy!
The traditional way is to draw your own on some graph paper ;)

But you may find this exceedingly interesting... behind the scenes notes
from the game creation... there are maps (no idea if accurate to the
final product) on pages 10 and 12. Possibly more maps deeper in too...

https://archive.org/details/InfocomCabinetHitchhikersGuide/page/n9/mode/2up


...I'm off to peruse through the didn't-know-I-had-them invisiclues in
the hintful version of the game! Thankyou :D


.../Nemo
--
----------------------------------------- -----------------------------
earth native
Tavis Ormandy
2021-01-12 05:40:17 UTC
Permalink
In article
<20210112120727.NemoThorx_eternalseptembe.ReInfocomAdventu
***@nemo.house.cx.invalid>,
***@nemo.house.cx.i
nvalid says...
Post by Nemo Thorx
Quoting Tavis Ormandy from 11 Jan (a Monday in 2021) at 1150 hours...
Post by Tavis Ormandy
There were some lines that felt like DNA had written them
(maybe he did, I know he was involved). That was cool.
As far as I know, he was heavily involved in both writing and
puzzle-creation, but didn't do the "turn it into code" programming
(He had an interest in doing so, but the expertise needed was more than
the available time for him to learn)
Post by Tavis Ormandy
The main problem for me was that what soft-locking
(getting the game into a state where you cannot make
progress) seems to be part of the game, which is super
frustrating.
Don't get me wrong, I've played old Sierra games, but I
think they would still have considered soft-locking
progress a bug?
It's very deliberate. Douglas himself said that the game is
user-insulting and user-mendacious (ie, deliberately lies to you)
https://twitter.com/bbcarchive/status/1011936679211528192
...basically, what you're describing is a feature, not a bug
Great clip, thanks for the link. You've convinced me to
stick with it a little longer, I guess I was posting in
exasperation ;-)


Tavis.
--
_o)
/\\ _o) _o)
_\_V _( ) _( ) :wq!
Kerr-Mudd,John
2021-01-12 10:28:38 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 02:07:27 GMT, Nemo Thorx
Post by Nemo Thorx
Quoting Tavis Ormandy from 11 Jan (a Monday in 2021) at 1150 hours...
[]
Post by Nemo Thorx
Post by Tavis Ormandy
The main problem for me was that what soft-locking
(getting the game into a state where you cannot make
progress) seems to be part of the game, which is super
frustrating.
[]
Post by Nemo Thorx
Whilst the Babel Fish puzzle does have the reputation for being
fiendish, the whole game changes style not long after that (once you get
onto the Heart of Gold). I actually found the latter half of the game to
be harder, but from memory, nothing in it relies on the first half, so
you can lock in a "arrived on the Heart of Gold" savepoint :)
There are several points where you can inadvertently go "wrong". At the
finale Marvin is very demanding!
Post by Nemo Thorx
There is a lot of quirky obscure content in the game too (footnote 12!)
and IMHO, absolutely worth it overall
Agreed
Post by Nemo Thorx
As a final observation, I'd note that at the time of release, it was
considered one of Infocom's best games, and was a best seller. It gained
much critical acclaim. So I'd say give it another go, and treat the game
itself as a character - a perhaps not entirely reliably one :)
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Nemo Thorx
2021-01-12 11:26:54 UTC
Permalink
Quoting Kerr-Mudd,John from 12 Jan (a Tuesday in 2021) at 1028 hours...
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Nemo Thorx
Post by Tavis Ormandy
The main problem for me was that what soft-locking
(getting the game into a state where you cannot make
progress) seems to be part of the game, which is super
frustrating.
[]
Post by Nemo Thorx
Whilst the Babel Fish puzzle does have the reputation for being
fiendish, the whole game changes style not long after that (once you
get
Post by Nemo Thorx
onto the Heart of Gold). I actually found the latter half of the game
to
Post by Nemo Thorx
be harder, but from memory, nothing in it relies on the first half, so
you can lock in a "arrived on the Heart of Gold" savepoint :)
There are several points where you can inadvertently go "wrong". At the
finale Marvin is very demanding!
Oh yeah, the finale puzzle was a real doozy! But I was thinking in the
sense of "if you create a savefile at the time of arriving on the Heart
of Gold, then nothing fundamentally relies on actions from the first
half"

...but then I remembered the space fleet with the miscalculation of
scale! I don't exactly remember how it fits in at this point though!



I did just remember too that the source code to the game is online, for
those truly interested in the low level geekiness of it all...

https://github.com/historicalsource/hitchhikersguide

(the compiled version therein is Release 60 / Serial number 861002 )

even more exciting is the code for what exists of the sequel...
https://github.com/historicalsource/restaurant
(including a small intro with like ... two locations)

And of course, the wholly original game... Bureaucracy
https://github.com/historicalsource/bureaucracy


.../Nemo
--
----------------------------------------- -----------------------------
earth native
Kerr-Mudd,John
2021-01-12 11:57:11 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 11:26:54 GMT, Nemo Thorx
Post by Nemo Thorx
Quoting Kerr-Mudd,John from 12 Jan (a Tuesday in 2021) at 1028 hours...
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Nemo Thorx
Post by Tavis Ormandy
The main problem for me was that what soft-locking
(getting the game into a state where you cannot make
progress) seems to be part of the game, which is super
frustrating.
[]
Post by Nemo Thorx
Whilst the Babel Fish puzzle does have the reputation for being
fiendish, the whole game changes style not long after that (once you
get
Post by Nemo Thorx
onto the Heart of Gold). I actually found the latter half of the game
to
Post by Nemo Thorx
be harder, but from memory, nothing in it relies on the first half, so
you can lock in a "arrived on the Heart of Gold" savepoint :)
There are several points where you can inadvertently go "wrong". At the
finale Marvin is very demanding!
Oh yeah, the finale puzzle was a real doozy! But I was thinking in the
sense of "if you create a savefile at the time of arriving on the Heart
of Gold, then nothing fundamentally relies on actions from the first
half"
...but then I remembered the space fleet with the miscalculation of
scale! I don't exactly remember how it fits in at this point though!
I did just remember too that the source code to the game is online, for
those truly interested in the low level geekiness of it all...
https://github.com/historicalsource/hitchhikersguide
(the compiled version therein is Release 60 / Serial number 861002 )
even more exciting is the code for what exists of the sequel...
https://github.com/historicalsource/restaurant
I was excited on discovering that it existed, then disappointed with how
little there was.
Post by Nemo Thorx
(including a small intro with like ... two locations)
I think that's all there was. BICBW.
Post by Nemo Thorx
And of course, the wholly original game... Bureaucracy
https://github.com/historicalsource/bureaucracy
.../Nemo
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Nemo Thorx
2021-01-12 15:13:07 UTC
Permalink
Quoting Kerr-Mudd,John from 12 Jan (a Tuesday in 2021) at 1157 hours...
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Nemo Thorx
even more exciting is the code for what exists of the sequel...
https://github.com/historicalsource/restaurant
I was excited on discovering that it existed, then disappointed with how
little there was.
Post by Nemo Thorx
(including a small intro with like ... two locations)
I think that's all there was. BICBW.
Memory takes a while to kick into gear. There is also this... a long
story about the creation (or lack thereof) of the sequel. Read the
comments for additions from Michael Bywater too

https://waxy.org/2008/04/milliways_infocoms_unreleased_sequel_to_hitchhikers_guide_to_the_galax/

...but also, it has both release 15 and release 184 of Milliways!

Both "playable". Release 15 actually has more places to go, but fewer
descriptions of things!


.../Nemo
--
----------------------------------------- -----------------------------
earth native
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